Fat Mike by OX Fanzine
The interview was translated from German to English by Viktor. Feel free to correct any mistakes. For the original, see OX Fanzine website or scans in the Interviews section.
Mike, how is it going?
Well, I'm pretty fucked; we've just come back from a US tour.
You go on tour before the album release?
Yea, we don't care about stuff like that. Hell, that was one of the craziest tours ever.
In what way?
Well, the stuff we did - at the shows and afterwards. In New York we went to a S/M club after the concert and had three chicks maul us - with needles. And, there were a lot of drugs all the time.
Is that so...
Yes, and at some point I was on stage in bra and panties. That was stuff thrown on stage by girls from the audience. And I smashed wine and beer glassed on my head. And that one time I fell off stage - on the head - because I was too drunk. And there were some other stories of this kind.
What makes you do stuff like that?
I don't know. The older we get, the more shit we do - taking drugs in the bathroom and stuff. And I'm almost 40... And Eric Melvin and I sometimes drink a bottle of vodka before a show. Well, but this way everybody has more fun - or at least we do. But I think, if we have fun, that's fun for the audience, too.
I talked to Vom of Die Toten Hosen about this topic and he said, that sometimes he's thinking about what his Mom might think when she reads about such excesses in interviews, and especially, what his son might think about him some day. What do you think about that?
Well, I used to think about that kind of stuff, but not any more. And next year there's going to be this big NOFX film project, anyway, where you'll be able to see unsparingly everything. The plan is to come to 30 cities that we've never been to and to give everybody of us a camera guy to film us all the time. We're thinking about South America, South Africa, Israel, southeast Asia... Every drug excess will be filmed, every visit at strip clubs, but who knows, maybe everything will be all mannered - most of the time it's just Eric Melvin and me really going out, anyway; our drummer Erik always goes back to the hotel after the concerts. I don't know what he does there, but maybe that's going to become an interesting story.
And you want to show up with that kind of film at home?
Of course, I don't have any secrets from my wife.
Instead of the "Osbournes" the "NOFXs"...
No, the difference is, that you always hear those stories about Black Sabbath and Mötley Crüe from Ozzie, but you never get to see anything. Our video, however, is supposed to show all the shit that's happening - if it's happening... We'll see. From totally shocking to totally depressing everything's possible. Maybe the standard reaction will be "Look at what those old idiots are doing..."
NOFX doing "Jackass" kind of stuff?
Not really, even though there was this beer and wine glass smashing not much time ago. But that's the exception. Most of the stuff just happens - like that time I accidently shit my pants on stage. I thought it was a fart, but it wasn't. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody has this at home as a souvenir.
You mentioned the countries, you've never been to. So, you've never played in Asia?
No, only once in Hong Kong and of course Japan, but Korea, Vietnam, Singapour or Indonesia never. That's all planned. We're spoiled kids - we've been touring at most two to three months a year for ages now - preferredly in a row. Well, and maybe a short visit in Europe for a few festivals. Our last US tour only consisted of twelve shows, that's all. But the way we party, we couldn't take more. We don't take many drugs, but many different ones.
In the notes to your new record you mention that nothing's as easy as being an alcoholic in a punk rock band. You joke about your drug use and at the same time the rock'n'roll and punk rock history is filled with people who've died from that kind of stuff.
Yes, but those people didn't know how to use drugs. I'm a college graduate, the owner of a company, I'm married and I have a daughter - I know how to use drugs. This may sound arrogant, but that's how it is. I drink before a concert, but not again afterwards, for example. Maybe I take another drug, but most of the time I'm in bed by three o'clock. And: I've never tried heroin. The problem is that people can't get enough - they take everything and too much of it, they do coke all night long. We don't, we do and take everything in moderation. The only thing that has gotten "worse" over the years is the drinking. And quite frankly, it's the drinking before the shows. It was really bad a few years ago - at our biggest show until now. It was in London. Eric Melvin, El Hefe and I had taken LSD and we could hardly play, that's how bad it was. But in the end it's all about having fun on stage and it doesn't matter to us if it's a huge concert.
As a band you kind of are an example for kids - and you say it's okay to take drug?
Yes, it's absolutely okay to take drugs. Look at you German people - you are the biggest alcoholics in the world...
Not to mention the French, the Italians, the Spanish, the Finnish and the Swedish.
And the Russians. The thing is: Whoever says that alcohol is okay and other drugs aren't is a hipocrite. More people die from alcoholism than from any other drug. Yes, I know that alcohol isn't good and that I'm a bad example in that way. But in other ways I am a good example: I've finished school, I went to college - I only started taking a lot of drugs after I had turned 30.
When you knew how to use drugs?
Yes. I didn't even try hash until I was 21. And then when I had a band and knew how to tour and my company was doing okay, I thought, now I'm going to amuse myself. Hell, I'm 39, I know how to use drugs and alcohol. And yes, I think, this is a good message for the kids: Go to school, get yourselves a good education and learn how to deal with your life - and then start to party!
That's what you're going to teach your daughter when she's in that age?
Absolutely. I don't want my daughter drinking before she's 16, 17... And I'm going to tell her to keep her fingers away from drugs until she's got her life under control. Otherwise, you can easily get problems.
Isn't that a bit conflicting with the punk rock clichés of wild reckless fun? Career first, party later - sounds pretty bourgeois...
Maybe. We got everything under control. On the other hand, that probably doesn't really apply to someone who does idiotic stunts like hanging himself on an opening lifting bridge. And being places where people get attacked with knives and guns isn't so much fun, either. We do shit like that all the time, even stage diving is a risk, but that's life. What I'm trying to say is, I'm no Darby Crash, no Sid Vicious - that's the difference. And: We're totally having fun on stage. We never have the same show twice with the same jokes in the same order. And you know, there are enough bands that play the exact same show every night. You can't say that about NOFX. We spontaniously play a song we haven't played or practised in six years and if we totally screw it up, who cares? So what if it's the Reading Festival. And if people burn American flags, I'll burn peace flags - in front of 100'000 people.
Regarding drugs, would you agree with this sentence: "Never trust a hippy"?
Oh yes. On our first tour 1985 we didn't get paid anywhere of course, and so we had bought two tabs of acid to sell them later and earn some money to get by. Of course, we had gotten some bad stuff from a hippy in Berkeley, but that didn't keep us from reselling it, haha.
That's where the title of your new EP, which has a Jesus drawing and that phrase on it, is coming from?
No. That's because I'm tired of offending all the conservatives and republicans and have found a new target group: religious people all over the world because it's them who ruin everything. The armies are not the problem, it's the fundamentalists all over the world who are responsible for all problems: Christians, Jews, Muslims, well the Buddhists not so much. Religion is the real enemy and when we got Jesus on the cover, then it's because I can be pretty sure I won't be killed because of it. Mohammed would be a whole different deal.
Did you already get reactions to the cover?
No, to the cover not yet, but at concerts I see people leave when I talk shit about God again and about people who believe in a religion. I say stuff like, I think people who believe more in God than in other people are idiots. And they better leave the show what not few kids actually do. But fuck them, it's a punk rock show, what are they expecting to hear?
Now I gotta ask you something which I already bothered you with once before: Why did you once put out an MxPx record? It's a band with a clearly Christian background.
Well, on that album which I put out back then, there isn't a single religious song. And: They used to consider themselves a Christian band, but not any more. They say they're a band with members who are Christian. They know what my opinion is, but as long as their faith stays a private matter, it's no problem for me and I can put out their record. An example for what's not okay: Comeback Kid. They would like to bring out a record on Fat Wreck, but I saw they thanked Jesus in the booklet of their previous album. That was it for us. I also declined the release of a Fear record once because the lyrics were too sexist. And Guttermouth were homophobes. I sometimes say no to a certain release when there are good reasons. With MxPx that was not the case: As long as someone believes in God, that's his thing, but if they try to force it on others, it's a problem for me.
I feel like it's almost impossible to keep track of which band is Christian and which one isn't. Especially in the metalcore sector it's common that neither labels nor fans care what conservative messages a band represents. It seems to me the labels care more about the finances than the contents.
Of course. It's a big deal! I gave an interview a while ago and mentioned that there was this bible group on the Warped tour last year. Every night people met to read in the bible. It was like 60, 70 people from bands praying every night. During that interview I also made clear that there won't be any fucking bible group if we play the Warped tour this year. If those fuckers should try, they're gonna be burried in beer bottles thanks to us, Rise Against and Anti-Flag. And they won't defend themselves because they're Christians - they're probably gonna turn the other cheek, hahaha. I don't see God and punk rock having anything in common. Well, and about MxPx: I gotta earn some money, hehe. Seriously, though, they're cool guys, who are cool with drugs and alcohol; they just had problems when they were kids.
So they became Christian.
Yes, when you grow up in a family that teaches you all the religious stuff when you're a baby, then you will have hard time thinking for yourself in your later life - and it will be hard to free yourself.
I see certain radicality in what you just said and on the other hand, it's all very well-balanced. How come?
Haha, thanks. You just can't be too unprogressive. Something about the Mohammed caricature conflict: I think the Danes made a mistake, and it was not okay that other European newspapers reprinted them. Why? Alone the fact that they were not funny is a reason. And it's not a good idea to piss off millions of crazy Muslims. It's like yelling "Fire!" in a crowded concert hall. That's not very smart. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech.
So you think, it wasn't wrong for basic reasons, but only considering the circumstances?
Yes, it's like with the holocaust: After that, you can't just print caricatures about killed Jews in a newspaper. It's just not a good idea. That's why I can understand the Muslims' reactions.
But then, what about your EP cover with Jesus holding a whine bottle on it?
So what? That's funny. Why? Because you’re from a Christian culture and have the right to critizise? Well, if I lived in a Christian society with people threatening to kill me, maybe I'd have second thoughts about the cover. But luckily, Christians are not as crazy as Muslims, which means Christian fundamentalists are not as crazy as Muslim ones. You can argue about that, but it's my opinion. Yes, there are Christians that put abortion clinics on fire, but they don't stone women to save face. That's the difference.
Is your family background Christian or Jewish?
My parents both are from Jewish families, but we never celebrated Jewish holidays or went to the synagogue.
Is that a reason to look at the Jesus cover differently?
No, why? Jesus was Jewish. Also, for "Seeing Double At The Triple Rock" from our new record we made a video with Jesus baptizing me in a toilet bowl. We organized a show for the video shoot where the visitor had to be dressed up as priests or nuns. That was a very funny picture, and then Jesus didn't surf in the crowd, but just walk on them, hahaha. The song is about a bar in Minneapolis and that's where we shot the video. It's owned by the guys from Dillinger 4.
I've only heard the EP until now and my first impression...
It's the same old shit, right? People always ask me what's so basically new and exciting about our new record and I say "Nothing!” It the same shit as always. We had a lot of fun in the studio, but if you have already recorded 250 songs during your career, it's hard being innovative. And while other bands became a lot worse over 20 years, we just got a bit worse.
The album titel is a modification of the phrase "wolves in sheeps' clothing". What's up with that?
It's a metaphor for the current situation in the USA. We're the country that claims to stand for democracy and freedom and once used to pretend to act in the name of the nice and good. But now we have put down the sheeps' clothing and are just the wolves that we are. We fuck everybody and do what we want.
Our last interview was shortly before the presidential elections in the USA and you were confident of being able to stop Bush from being re-elected, thanks to engagement via punkvoter.com. It came differently. What has changed in the last one and a half years in the USA?
The situation in Iraq has worsened massively and meanwhile we have managed to get the whole Middle East against us. Reproductive rights – which means women's rights – have been cut down, some states are pretty fast. The Supreme Court is now in the hands of the religious right. We have an economy and currency crisis. We're an embarrassing picture to the world. There's nothing great left about the USA. Our platform punkvoter.com is still active. There are the elections for the Congress coming up, so there are some new statements. We're going to become more active again for the Warped tour after we were on a pretty long break. But I was only pissed for a short while after Bush won, and that night we already had a big party; we celebrated ourselves for working hard for our country. You have to realize the situation in the world and the USA has been worse: World War II, the genocide in Yugoslavia in the 90s, the world economy crisis (is das das wort?) with a 25% unemployment rate... Bush is a horrible president, but that's not a reason to ruin your own life.
Have you seen the movie "Syriana", which is about the connection of US economy interests and foreign policies?
No, but I was impressed by "Good Night Good Luck"; it's about the McCarthy era. I noticed, back in those days they reported real news while today the news in the USA are just one single joke. What I’m trying to say abou this movie is: At first you think it was really horrible back then, but then you realize it even worse today. And at the same time, in countries like Argentina or Brazil everything is still a lot worse, for example regarding corruption, while in Europe some countries have reached something. The USA isn’t even close to as bad as Congo – all the complaining doesn’t change that, you have to consider that, too. And at least nobody has to starve in the USA.
Sure, but what if people are so poor that they can only afford cheap unhealthy eatbables?
Of course that’s a problem – but still better than dying of hunger, isn’t it? Being fat is better than starving.
Sounds like a perfect name for the next Fat sampler.
Haha, good idea, yea. Anyway, in the US even the bums are fat because in the trash cans they find half eaten sandwiches. Only the junkees are thin. The Americans’ problem is that they don’t know real poverty and suffering. Even the poorest of the poor have a TV in the USA.
Of course, that’s how you distract people. Let’s talk about Fat Wreck. What’s going on with you label, what kept you busy over the last months, what are the plans for the future?
Well, it was hard on me that Against Me! left the label to go to a major. And I’m very satisfied with the latest Lagwagon album. We’re doing what we’ve always been doing: Slowly going downhill, haha. Recently, The Loved Ones, The Lawrence Arms and Saint Catherines records have been released. Love Equals Death is coming soon. And of course we’re trying to sign new cool bands. In any case we’re going to keep our hands off trendy screamo metal bands – even though they seem to be very popular right now. That area is where most of the religious bands come from. But many labels have no problem signing something like that. Well, they sign everything that’s popular. But that’s not the spirit that I founded Fat Wreck with and I don’t wanna end like that. But there are worse things in the world than labels signing shitty bands.
Is that so? And who’s the real victim? We guys at Ox because we have to listen to all those CDs at least once!
I’m not going to talk shit about Tony of Victory because he signs Christian bands that he thinks he can make a lot of money with. We at Fat Wreck just have the luck of having bands like No Use For A Name, Mad Caddies, Strung Out, NOFX or Lagwagon – all those older bands that sell well, even if not as well as they used to, but I don’t want to complain. And there are still people who critisize bands for signing to Fat Wreck because they think we’re some kind of small major. That’s what happened with the Real McKenzies, for example. People accused them of being sellouts. And I signed them just because they’re the biggest alcoholics I know, haha. We were on tour in Japan, and I don’t know any band who parties harder.
Armand of Sick Of It All told me they left Fat Wreck because the label was too small for them, especially in Europe.
I can live with that. And yes, we don’t really spend much money on our bands, but their records sold well. Even bands like Lagwagon, No Use For A Name or NOFX sold fewer of their new record than of their previous one over the last years. That’s been going on since “Punk In Drublic” for NOFX and since “Hoss” for Lagwagon. Sick Of It All had the same problem: they always sold fewer of their new records. But should that be a reason for me to put more money in them? Do they think that would have made them bigger? Maybe their new label will give them a good push, but they won’t sell 200’000 records like the old days. They’re a hardcore band that’s in the business for 20 years, that’s how it is. But it was nice having them at Fat Wreck Chords and being friends with them.
Do you consider it a personal defeat when sales aren’t going as good as they used to years ago?
I think it’s a normal development in the record business. A band is young, gets more popular and one day the point comes when the popularity starts decreasing. That’s how things go and it’s true for 99% of the bands. Of course, bands don’t like it, but I can only ask them what they thought. Did they think they’d always get bigger and bigger? So, how could I take it personally? Take the Ramones for example, the greatest punk band of all times: They got smaller with every record, regarding record sales.
At the same time, though, they got more and more popular with other musicians and journalists. And because people always wrote and talked about them, you have a total different impression - until today.
Yea, I don’t know if they ever even got a gold record. As opposed to us, by the way: We got a gold record for “Punk In Drublic”. Worldwide we sold over a million ot them. But since then it’s been going downhill nice and constantly.
Does it have to do anything with the whole downloading and sharing phenomenon?
Let’s put it this way: It has speeded up the recession. But it’s not so much the downloading as the CD copying which is so easy today. Everybody knows it: One guy buys a CD, a friend asks if he can burn it and that’s it. That’s the real problem, but I don’t get upset over it any more. It’s the natural course. Parallel to the decreasing record sales, the attendence at NOFX shows has not changed, by the way.
You hear that everywhere. And especially the merchandise sales at shows get more and more important. But once again, how do you deal with the declining record sales – do you have crisis and strategy meetings at the Fat Wreck office?
Sure people at my label ask “Mike, what are we gonna do? Should we try something different?” But I’m a strange person and I say no, that’s just how things go. We tell our bands to go on tour as much as possible – that brings money. But I don’t have an answer to the question for the secret weapon of increasing record sales. Other labels are selling very well at the moment, like Victory, which is because that sound is very popular right now. But take Green Day. They’re the biggest rock band of the world currently. But at the same time they only sold a third of the “Dookie” sales of their new album. And they’re way bigger and more famous than back then.
Talking about live shows: Will we be able to catch NOFX live in Germany this year?
No. We came to Germany just last year. I think our success has something to do with our shows being something special, not coming every few months to a city, but only every few years. This way, people are looking forward to it even more.
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